Несносный наблюдатель ([info]cema) wrote,
@ 2009-07-05 18:24:00
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On Sarah Palin
A long, long exposure.

From the point of view of a feminist.

Update. VDH steps in. Well, hmm. He sounds less serious.

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[info]shvarz
2009-07-05 11:53 pm UTC (link)
Я не дочитал, бросил где-то в районе "все истории про Сару придумали сторонники Обамы", ну да, наверно, и не важно - я же не феминист. Я ее терпеть не могу за то, что она с огромной радостью подхватила идею называть Обаму сторонником террористов и социалистом, намеренно собирающимся разрушить Америку. Этот конкретный повод автор в своем тексте (до того места, до которого я дочитал) не разбирает. Видимо, потому что он к феминизму отношения не имеет.

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[info]cema
2009-07-06 01:57 am UTC (link)
бросил где-то в районе "все истории про Сару придумали сторонники Обамы"

При том что сказано было другое, конечно.

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[info]shvarz
2009-07-06 03:13 am UTC (link)
Ну да, там же все по-английски. Что-то в процессе перевода было искажено, но реалии не так уж далеки:

The lies had to start somewhere, and they didn’t all hatch in the bowels of the Obama campaign (though a bunch of them did).

Were feminists simply willing to commit any slander necessary to elect the Chosen One? That’s a likely explanation.

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[info]calypso72
2009-07-06 01:09 am UTC (link)
Palin is a feminist? Anyone can tack a label onto him/herself. I'd like to know about one policy she has championed that advances the cause of women's equality in America. And I don't mean by advancing herself.

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[info]cema
2009-07-06 01:59 am UTC (link)
I cannot judge. I am not a feminist. (Did she label herself a feminist or did the author of the article?)

"Advancing herself" is not such a bad idea when she is a politician. I do say that we have too many politicians and not enough statesmen. But this is a completely different issue.

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[info]calypso72
2009-07-06 02:20 am UTC (link)
Reading a little more through the blogger that you linked to I see what she is - a very disgruntled Hillary Clinton supporter who cannot get over her resentment that Obama won. Well, I understand the deep desire to see a woman in the role of President or even VEEP - it took me a while to get over the fact that this was not going to happen in 2008 - but not at any cost (i.e. electing McCain so a woman could be VEEP).

Palin is not a feminist - I don't care who tacks on the label - it is not held up by her record.

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[info]eta_ta
2009-07-06 03:15 pm UTC (link)
why should she get over it? Obama proved to be even worse for the country (and the world, counting now Iran and Honduras) than it could be perceived before the election. If anything, her resentment and disgust, as of any unbiased observer, should multiply.

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[info]wsobchak
2009-07-06 03:36 am UTC (link)
who is the impartial arbiter of who gets let into the Feminist Treehouse and who doesn't? Is there a Femputer out there somewhere?

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[info]trurle
2009-07-06 06:02 am UTC (link)
Is there a Femputer out there somewhere?
Actually, yes

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[info]calypso72
2009-07-06 12:44 pm UTC (link)
I think it's pretty undisputable that a woman (or a man) in a position of political power who does not use that power to advance women's equality where s/he can is not to be considered a feminist.

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[info]wsobchak
2009-07-06 06:53 pm UTC (link)
1) what does "advancing women's equality" mean, in this day and age? what did Palin not do as a governor towards this end that she should have done? I think they're allowed to vote in Alaska, btw.

2) if somebody self-identifies as a member of a political movement, who are you to deny their self-identification?

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[info]cema
2009-07-06 09:20 pm UTC (link)
I think they're allowed to vote in Alaska

:-)

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[info]calypso72
2009-07-06 10:53 pm UTC (link)
1) Oh please, don't get me started - equality does not begin or end with the right to vote or did you miss the point of the American civil rights movement? How about supporting paid maternity AND paternity leave. How about supporting affordable, quality child care FOR ALL. How about supporting equal pay for equal work. How about supporting sex ed and easy access to contraceptives for teenagers. She didn't even support that for her own daughter, evidently. I could go on and on.

2) Last time I checked, I live in a country where I am free to express my opinion about any public figure I please. If the CEO of Shell Oil gets up and calls himself an environmentalist, I have every right to call bullshit. The notion that Sarah Palin is a feminist is bullshit.

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[info]wsobchak
2009-07-06 11:24 pm UTC (link)
1) If you see rights as "goods and services that people are owed," then we have a disagreement which goes way beyond whether Sarah Palin is a feminist. Leaving the issue of whether paternity leave is a women's rights issue, maternity leave and child care are not free. So when you say that women have a RIGHT to them, you're saying that all employers have a RESPONSIBILITY to provide them. Thus, you're making employing a woman an automatically dicey proposition for any business, especially any small business. You're imposing additional operating costs on them, and limiting their margin of profitability. Thus, you're providing a disincentive to employing women and keeping jobs in the US. The alternative is that businesses do employ women and keep jobs in the US, but raise their prices. Even assuming that you could pass some kind of legislation forcing all of them to operate this way (and remember, if one business keeps its prices low by not employing women or exporitng jobs, all the others will be driven out of operation,) you're passing the cost of your "rights" on to everybody else. So, in effect, men and women that either don't want to have children or take care of their own kids are going to be forced to pay for your reproductive success. This is not equality for women-it is privilege for some women at the expense of everybody else.

Equal pay for equal time is a ludicrous slogan. Women who dedicate the same amount of time and education to their work get paid the same amount or more as their male colleagues. Women who have made the choice to take time out of their career and education to address their reproductive desires make less. This is only fair. Why don't you worry about the gap in spending power instead? In other words, while women may earn less money than men, they decide how much more of it is spent. Or you could worry about how divorce courts systematically oppress men in this country, with men routinely being denied access to their children and forced to subsidize their ex-wives lifestyles. You don't want equal rights, you want female privilege.

2) You are free to express any opinion you want, no matter how dumb or unfounded it may be. Anybody else has every right to call bullshit on your opinions. You've got a lot of hubris setting arbitraty criteria on what qualifies somebody to consider themselves an adherent of any given ideology, then calling them "indisputable."

Sarah Palin has done more to make women respected for their accomplishments than any three living female politicians in America you could name. She did not ride to power by compromising her principles, or on a man's coattails. And she has acquitted herself pretty well in an executive position, with very real consequences flowing from her decisions. What is it that you do for a living? Let me guess, something in the legal field?

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[info]cema
2009-07-06 11:32 pm UTC (link)
2) Ad hominem are irrelevant, and it is not the legal field. (Stereotypes again.)

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[info]wsobchak
2009-07-06 11:34 pm UTC (link)
stereotypes exist for a reason

just trying to satisfy my personal curiosity, is all-I'll answer questions about what I do for a living, if anybody cares

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[info]calypso72
2009-07-07 12:11 am UTC (link)
Sorry, but you couldn't be more wrong and your tendency to make stereotypes is pretty distressing.

/end flame war.

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[info]cema
2009-07-07 12:45 am UTC (link)
Why, he could be more wrong. He could have guessed you were working in mines or in a circus, I say that would be more wrong. OK, would not fit stereotypes, I guess...

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[info]wsobchak
2009-07-07 01:00 am UTC (link)
think I'll go have a burger to console myself

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[info]cema
2009-07-07 01:12 am UTC (link)
Get a mooseburger! :-)

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[info]wsobchak
2009-07-07 01:18 am UTC (link)
we don't have any here-I'll have to settle for one made out of a colorado cow

wait, maybe I'll just go have some veal, instead

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[info]cema
2009-07-07 01:31 am UTC (link)
Veal is healthy.

(I know what you trying to do. It's a good guess, but you are a bit off.)

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[info]wsobchak
2009-07-07 01:32 am UTC (link)
hey, I'm not Miss Cleo

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[info]wsobchak
2009-07-06 03:58 am UTC (link)
the answer is simple, but the author of your post will never admit to it. Women are, by and large, total bitches to each other, especially when they are intimidated by another woman's looks, success, intellect, integrity, etc. If you happen to work with a group of women and listen to what they say about each other, you know this. Palin had all those cards stacked against her. Conversely, when it comes to a successful, smooth and confident man, they'll line up to excuse his personal failings away, no matter what kind of a douche he is. I guess the only exception was when the feminists united in their defense of Monica Lewinsky, a young woman who had gotten jizzed on by a married man in a position of power, then had her characted assasinated by a bunch of goons for telling the truth. Oh, wait, that didn't happen.

and of course her juxtaposition of a successful family life and a career is perceived as a slap in the face by every yuppie SWPL chick out there. Palin has a loving family, as opposed to a divorce and a succession of random dicks from nightclubs. Palin has five children, as opposed to a ticking cougar biological clock. Palin did not abort her kid with Down's and shows no regrets. Your typical NOW member has had a couple of abortions and is now, at 35+, secretly wishing she'd kept them and hating herself for it. Except the Andrea Dworkin looking lesbian trolls, of course, and even they probably wish they'd popped out a couple of babies when they could. Oh, and Palin's career actually involved doing stuff that mattered, as opposed to writing for some shitty newspaper or riding a desk in Human Relations. So, yeah, no wonder they hate her.

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[info]calypso72
2009-07-06 12:47 pm UTC (link)
Your typical NOW member has had a couple of abortions and is now, at 35+, secretly wishing she'd kept them and hating herself for it. Except the Andrea Dworkin looking lesbian trolls, of course, and even they probably wish they'd popped out a couple of babies when they could

Wow, who's the bitch making unsupported accusations and generalizations now?

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[info]ivanlenin
2009-07-06 01:48 pm UTC (link)
judging by your manners, it looks like you're referring to yourself

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[info]cema
2009-07-06 03:32 pm UTC (link)
OK, tone it down a bit.

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[info]wsobchak
2009-07-06 06:59 pm UTC (link)
you're taking this very personally. If the stereotype fits...

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[info]wsobchak
2009-07-06 07:54 am UTC (link)
the comments on that post are AWESOME. Every other one is quotable.

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[info]cema
2009-07-06 08:03 am UTC (link)
Yeah, rarely happens.

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[info]kroha376
2009-07-06 08:13 am UTC (link)
Это лишь доказывает, что права мужчин преувеличены ими настолько, насколько женщинами их бесправие.

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[info]cema
2009-07-06 08:26 am UTC (link)
Not sure I get it.

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[info]kroha376
2009-07-06 08:33 am UTC (link)
Завтра перефразирую, крохам пора спать.

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[info]eta_ta
2009-07-06 03:22 pm UTC (link)
Looks like this time your efforts to provoke outrageous comments were not very successful. Just a few...and not of especially infuriating kind. Either your source is uninspiring, or the audience got tired of debating...or there is something wrong with your phrasing. Check what's applicable.

(Reply to this)

Aga
(Anonymous)
2009-07-07 03:12 pm UTC (link)
And I'm a lesbian!

VB

PS. I'm dead serious too- drive a Subi, like the ... etc.

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Re: Aga
(Anonymous)
2009-07-08 09:59 pm UTC (link)
He really steps in- Barak worked as a community organizer (winnebago or slums of Chicago- what gets you more exposure?) and did some stupid things (drugs).

Which beggs the question in all of this idiotic deabte- who's closer to "real" America? Moose hunting cutie dimwit, or a pot smoking Harvard lawyer.

Obviously, a dimwit. Just more in common.

The sad part is, if you don't like anyone you can pick and choose whatever fuck you want to derade them: education, experience, upbringing, gender, vocabulary etc.

Intellectual relativism at its best.

SPINNNNN

VB

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[info]cema
2009-07-08 10:34 pm UTC (link)
Yes, relativism it is. Except she is not a dimwit.

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Hm
(Anonymous)
2009-07-09 04:41 pm UTC (link)
It's relative of course,

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[info]cema
2009-07-09 04:46 pm UTC (link)
Vlad! Don't disappear!

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I'm here
[info]vlader
2009-07-09 07:29 pm UTC (link)
Just lazy to sign in.

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Re: I'm here
[info]cema
2009-07-11 06:57 am UTC (link)
And too lazy to complete a sentence?

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